# Swell AI Transcript: BHP Dr Henry Cloud v2.mp4

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Welcome to the Beyond High Performance podcast featuring content and conversations from me, Jason Jaggard, along with our elite coaches at Novus Global, their high performing clients, and the faculty of the Metta Performance Institute for Coaching.

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On this podcast, you'll hear some of the world's best executive coaches and high performing leaders, artists and athletes discuss how they continue to go beyond high performance in their lives and businesses.

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In this episode of the Metta Performance Show, I sit down with bestselling author, 20 million copies and counting, leadership expert, and clinical psychologist, Dr. Henry Cloud.

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After building and operating a successful healthcare company, he has devoted his time to leadership and executive coaching, spreading principles of hope and life change through his speaking, writing, and media.

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With 13 books on life and leadership, Dr. Cloud has helped more than 150 million leaders increase performance and build culture around them.

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In today's conversation, Dr. Cloud gives us a deep exploration into the subject matter of his newest book, Trust, knowing when to give it, when to withhold it, how to earn it, and most importantly, how to fix it when trust is broken.

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We also explore the secret ingredient to all growth and what young leaders need to do to maximize their opportunity for success and the difference between being tired and being burnt out and what to do about it.

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This was a fun and unique episode where Dr. Cloud graciously answered some questions from our executive coaches at Novus Global and a few of our clients and friends.

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This one is an absolute treasure trove of valuable information.

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We hope you enjoy the show.

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And we're actually going to drop you into the middle of the conversation Henry and I are having before we started the interview about the connection between ancient wisdom literature and modern leadership.

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It's really good stuff and we didn't want to cut it out.

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So here we go.

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I feel like you almost, you see the world through that lens and it has helped you become successful in things that really are important.

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And so it'd be interesting to hear just your perspective on that.

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I try to look at, um, my main hermeneutic, let's put it that way.

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is I try to get to the created order, so the way things are designed, and then align everything with that.

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Like, if you learn the laws of physics, and it's sort of like the Medici effect, my primary hermeneutic for all things psychology is physics.

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When you look at it through that lens, which actually Freud was a Newtonian physicist, and that's why you get hydraulics in his original theory, that if you push down an emotion over here, it pops up in a symptom.

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And when you get back and look at things like thermodynamics, a closed system creates entropy, a leader, when their head is a closed system,

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more entropy is going to occur over time.

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You open up the system to a new source of energy and intelligence, and that's how you reverse sympathy, the same way you do in a team or a company or a problem.

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So I can't not see the world through the operating system of God's ways, the way He designed it to work, and a lot of those He elucidates clearly.

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Yeah, and so then in your mind, the ancient text does a, I'm going to understate it a little bit and allow you to respond, does a reasonable job of explaining the physics of human relationships.

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Yeah, the physics as well as the neuroscience.

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For example, what psychologists call an observing ego, when you get above your experience and look at it,

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then regulatory systems begin to kick in in the brain that mitigate against impulse control, judgment, executive functioning, a bunch of other stuff.

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Just by the fact of getting up and saying, what am I thinking?

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You know, I'm angry right now.

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What that does is it opens up a lot of choices for how to respond to that that otherwise you would have just instinctively responded.

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Well, the ancient text, as you say, tells us over and over to observe your ways, to look at your heart, to look at your, you know, take every thought captive, all of those observing.

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There's a lot of stuff.

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I mean, I get… Yeah.

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If the audience is listening, what I'm calling an ancient text is also oftentimes known as the Bible, and… Often.

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And then when he's talking about observe your ways, I believe that's a proverb, and then taking your thoughts captive, that's a phrase I think written by a guy named Paul in a letter to a group of people in East Asia.

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It wasn't after they split up and Ringo did that.

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Well, you know, I mean, Yoko, I think, got involved somehow, and then everything just went sideways.

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But it's the Apostle Paul.

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So, Dr. Cloud, thank you so much for being on our show.

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There's a lot of people who listen to this podcast who have been really excited to introduce you to them.

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And so thanks for being willing to let us introduce you to our audience.

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Good to be here.

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So there's two parts of this conversation.

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One is, of course, you had a book come out this year and it's doing very well and it's on trust.

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And, you know, I read it and a lot of our coaches have read it and have really enjoyed it.

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And so I do want to touch on this.

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And then the second half of the interview, actually, our coaches submitted questions because they're really excited for me to get to talk to you.

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And so we're going to bounce around with some of those.

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And it's wonderful.

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Are most of your coaches questions about

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working for a difficult leader?

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Is that kind of like... Is there a theme we've got to deal with?

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How do you get your leader to be better?

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I think that was... When you work with someone who's not fun to work with, how do you... So we'll touch on those.

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We'll leave it for suspense for our audience on what those questions are.

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But first, your book Trust.

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I really loved it.

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It's affected the culture of our company as we move forward.

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And

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And you mentioned in the book the five, I don't know if you call them pillars, but five elements of trust.

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And I'd love to just skip a stone across those so if someone's listening and thinking, oh, that's exactly what I need, they can go out and purchase this.

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And then we're going to drill down into something you talk about in chapter 17.

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But first, what were the five elements of trust?

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What I tried to do was, if you look at all of the literature about trust, trust comes up in every single, I'm sorry to say relationship, but really every endeavor in life.

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Economies that have greater trust have way higher performance than those that don't.

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All the way to business, all the way to within organizations, with stakeholders, customers, investors, all that, all the way to the other side, to raising a teenager.

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you know, or a marriage or a dating relationship.

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And so what I tried to do in this book, I kind of write my business books, I always think the guiding principle is business and life, because what we're talking about, I learned a long time ago, when I went in this field as a clinical psychologist, my first job was in a leadership consulting firm.

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So I've had these kind of two parallel tracks for decades of clinical psychology, which deals with how people feel and function in relationships and performance, but in the context of leadership and

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I used to think when I first started, oh, I'm a clinician, I'm in a leadership firm, organizational behavior, all this kind of stuff.

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I got deep into all that, did my doctoral dissertation on it, got to know what I'm doing.

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And then I started to see, you know, you got people that look for personal growth, you got people that look for leadership functioning over here, and that's two different disciplines.

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And I found out, well, there's a person in this place called reality, and what happens is,

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their individual makeup and how people work and function really affects leadership and performance.

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And the context of leadership pulls at an individual and their issues differently than any other context.

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And so I named it decades ago.

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I hang out in that middle space where how people work and how they're wired and how they work together

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interfaces with the field of leadership and performance.

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And so when you look at all of that stuff, trust comes up all the time.

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All the time.

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Because you can't get from, even in a consulting situation, I go in, it may be a performance issue, it may be morale, it may be the numbers, whatever it is.

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You get very far into the conversation, you've hit trust.

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You know, oh, my leader's micromanaged me.

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Trust.

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You know, I can't delegate trust.

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I don't know if I want to make that investment, hire that person, trust.

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And so it kind of rose to the top years ago as an issue and I started developing a model for it.

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And when I look at all of that literature, I like to

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I like to think, you know, I was trained as a researcher, and in complicated statistics, you do these different kinds of things.

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And one of them is called a factor analysis.

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So you take everything that's there, and you look at the inner correlations, and you find out we're really not talking about 100 things.

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We're talking about five things.

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And they're expressed in different ways.

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So that's what I did.

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And so factor analyzing all of the stuff on trust

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it kind of falls in five buckets.

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And what's interesting is we can have one or two of these in a relationship, or we can have all five in a relationship, and change the context of the relationship, and there you only have two.

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And a person you could trust, well, you can't really trust him to go lead a division, even though you trust him with your life.

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But we all trust the guy.

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Well, do you?

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And so

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I wanted to give a little model like a GPS where you could click off the boxes, whether you're doing a deal, hiring a person, building a team, talking to an investor, or raising your teenager.

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Are these five things in place?

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And then I can know when to give it, when to withhold it, how to earn it, and how to fix it.

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So we talk about these five, that's what we're talking about.

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All right, number one, trust is

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released when somebody feels like the other person, number one, understands them.

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This is based on neurological mirror neurons and tones and emotional attunement and presence and the way somebody interacts.

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When you start to talk about what you need and if you feel like the other person really gets you, they know what hurts you, they know what's going to make you fail, they know what's going to make you succeed, they know what's going to make you happy, they know what you're afraid of, you walk away going, oh, they get it.

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They're listening, they understand.

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It's basic deep empathy.

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I mean, it sounds so simple, but I did a talk on this at a leadership event one time, and the lead negotiator, or the scholar said to me, he said, I'm the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI, and everything you just talked about is our whole program.

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You don't walk into a bank and tell them, hey, put the bomb down, this is a dumb idea.

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You don't persuade people into trust.

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You first walk in and say, I'm Henry.

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They sent me in here to talk to you.

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What's your name?

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So how'd we get here today?

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And they listen and they start, the person starts to feel understood.

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The whole neurological system begins to open up.

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You're going to sell a car.

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Don't persuade somebody how great this car is.

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Ask them.

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So tell me about your family.

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How do you use a car?

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Draw it out of them.

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They feel understood.

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Number two, um,

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You know, people trying to seduce people will use empathy to understand them.

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But they're doing that for their own purposes.

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The second one is, what's your motive?

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What's your agenda?

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And we are wired to be able to sense when somebody is in it for themselves.

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You ever been on a team where the team's trying to work on this transcendent goal or vision or project or whatever it is,

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and they're trying to accomplish that together.

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But this one person's kind of got their own agenda.

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They're always pushing.

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All their answers, all their suggestions, it's going to kind of benefit them or their idea in some way.

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And trust breaks down.

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And so we've got to feel it.

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Look, everybody has their own self-interest in every interaction.

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Relationships have to be mutually satisfying.

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But

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If you feel like they're only in it for themselves and not you, they don't have your back, they don't care about what matters to you, trust goes away.

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I mean, how many times have you gotten an email, hey, I've got a great opportunity for you?

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Now, if that comes from one person, you go, oh my gosh, I've got to find out what it is.

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They're always, you know, they love me.

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They're looking out for me.

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What is this?

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It comes from another person?

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Yeah, right.

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For me, right?

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And you know motive.

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I mean, you sense motive.

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You smell it.

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Number three.

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Somebody have great motives and understand us.

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In the book, I talk about picking a knee surgeon, empathic.

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What if they're really understanding and they want my life to be better?

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And then then the guy says, I can't wait to do your knee replacement because I'm an OBGYN.

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I've never done one of these before.

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No, no, not going to do that.

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That's right.

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Number three.

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What's their ability to pull off what you're entrusting to them?

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How many times do friends go into business?

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Oh, we love each other.

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Our wives, you know, we could travel together.

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It's so much fun.

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They go into business and you find out your friend that you trust with your life six months into it sucks at running a business.

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Because you trusted them, but you didn't check the box of what are their abilities in this context.

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So that's a big one.

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Well, OK, let's say he's really not an OB-GYN.

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He's a heralded knee surgeon.

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And he says, OK, you know, we have a theater in the operating room teaching hospital.

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You can come in and watch me do one or look through the window.

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And what if I look through the window and he starts carving on this guy's leg?

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And five minutes into it, the surgeon goes, oh, no, he's bleeding.

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Somebody do something.

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The patient's bleeding.

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Well, the fourth one is what's your character makeup?

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I want somebody cool under pressure.

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I don't care how smart and talented he is, because if I start squirting out fragments of ligaments, I want him to be able to think, right?

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And so sometimes they're great people, but you're going to send them on a project, or you're going to send them to a customer, or you're going to... What's their makeup like?

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Are they ready-aimed fire, or are they fire-ready aim?

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You know, they're impulsive, they're ADD.

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What if they're, you know, what if they're reactive and have an anger problem?

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Or if they're not very compassionate, what if they're glued together?

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And you've seen people that got to have a lot of praise, a lot of attaboys or attagirls, and you're sitting on a turnaround project, there's not going to be any good news for a year.

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That's a different makeup or negotiating a deal.

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Do they have the stomach to drive a deal hard?

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So context really matters.

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And the fourth one is, what's their makeup as a person?

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And then the fifth one, what happened last time?

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The fifth one is the track record.

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And so, you know, the best predictor of the future always is the past.

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Now, that doesn't mean after a failure or screw up or whatever that somebody can't come back.

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But just because they say they're sorry, they don't come back the next day.

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What we got to do is develop a new past.

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So if you say, you hired that person, don't you know that?

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Yeah, I know that two years ago, but in the past two years, he's had coaching and he's developed and he's done all this.

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So now there's a track record.

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to engage us to take incremental steps of trust.

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So you put all those five together, and you got a pretty good shot at it, unless it's Bernie Madoff.

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I mean, he fooled a lot of smart people, but we need a map, is all I'm saying.

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Well, and I love that.

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One of the things I love about that, Henry, is it's not entirely a moral framework.

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It's not whether the person's a good person or not.

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I mean, motive gets into that a little bit,

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But the other ones really are, you could trust someone to be your mechanic, but you wouldn't necessarily trust them to be your babysitter, or whatever.

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You can really start to get specific on that.

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I always tell the story of a friend of mine who called me and said, hey, I need some advice.

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I said, well, he said, my daughter's boyfriend

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called me and wants to take me to dinner.

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He said, I know what that means.

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He's going to ask for my daughter's hand in marriage.

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What do I say at that dinner?

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And I go, I got two daughters.

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I know what I'm going to do.

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And he said, what?

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And I said, I'm going to tell him to bring his last two years tax returns.

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And he goes, yeah, right.

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And I said, I am dead serious.

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He said, you're not going to do that.

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He said, that's so intrusive.

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I said, look, he can white out the numbers.

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I don't care what the numbers are.

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I don't care how much he makes.

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I just want to know if he can find them.

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Do they exist?

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Because, like you're saying, we think of trust morally.

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The job description of a husband is way different than the job description of a boyfriend.

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And can I trust him even though he's morally great?

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Does he have the abilities?

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That's number three.

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Does he have the ability to join somebody's life and not wreck it?

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I don't know.

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That's right.

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Well, and it is.

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I highly recommend if you're watching this or listening to this, check out Trust.

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And I'm going to skip to the end of the book, because I actually really love asking questions at the end of books.

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When my book came out, I probably foolishly put one of my favorite chapters at the end of the book, which means no one's ever going to see it.

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Henry, I've known you for a while, at least from afar in some ways, and I've enjoyed reading your books and how people grow.

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You touched on some things.

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And then in Necessary Endings, there's a screenshot towards the end of the book where you lay out nine

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things that are necessary to see if someone's growing.

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And I remember reading that and thinking not only what to look for in other people to see if they're wanting to grow, but also thinking, what kind of person am I?

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Can people see those things in me when I'm wanting to grow?

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And then you touched on it.

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You mentioned it briefly in Necessary Endings.

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And then in Trust, you went from 9 to 11

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And then you actually spent a whole chapter extrapolating these things.

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And if you don't mind, I'd like to read them briefly for our audience, because I think they're so good.

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And then I want to talk about just a couple of them.

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If you're taking notes or if you're listening to this, a context for this, and then Henry, you can add some things if you want, if I'm getting my fingerprints on it too much.

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I looked at this as, what are some things that are necessary for a person to grow?

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And then in the trust context, what are some things that are necessary to look for if you're trying to see if a person is going to grow?

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So that's the frame that I'm building.

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Would you add to that?

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Yeah, go ahead.

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Can I just say something real quickly before we move off the trust paradigm?

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Yeah, please.

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Because I know we're talking to coaches, and I know we're talking to people that lead people.

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I just got back from Atlanta, did an offsite with the executive team of a big company yesterday.

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And with the team, we just took just the first one of understanding and worked through the team.

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Like, I'll give you another example.

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A sales team, one company, they're out there

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selling deals for a new technology that's come in, hit the market in the spring.

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And the customer says, well, can it do this?

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Yeah, we can build that feature into it.

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They don't even know what that means to R&D.

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There's no way they're going to hit that deadline.

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Yeah.

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You get teams feeling like they really understand the other person's function.

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So they know how what they do affects them.

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It is unbelievable what it does.

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Unbelievable.

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We're having that right now with our company.

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As we talk with clients, we've got their interests.

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We want to make the client happy.

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We've got coaches.

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We want to make them happy.

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We've got people who own pieces of the company.

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We want them to be happy.

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What's necessary for all those three groups to be happy all at the same time sometimes is different, and it's easy to not understand, villainize the other person,

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And they don't realize how oftentimes interdependent they are.

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I was working with a home building company and this leader actually kind of revolutionized the industry.

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He got builder of the year a number of years ago.

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And, you know, one of the big problems in building large developments is the carrying cost of everything until everything is sold.

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You know, you still owe the bank until we're out of there, right?

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And so he was interested in profitability as much as sales and revenues and all that.

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So what he did was he looked at this timeline.

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He said, if I can cut that timeline back, there's gazillions to be had on each project that we're not capturing.

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So he starts to study that.

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And then he realizes, well, a lot of times the drywallers can't come in because

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The concrete guy hadn't scheduled the pouring of the driveway or, you know, the electricians can't come in because the framers hadn't.

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So he brought all of the subs together in the beginning of the project.

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These are companies that don't really know each other other to say hi on the site.

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Sometimes they never see each other more than a couple of days.

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Brings them all in in the beginning.

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and says, and gets them to understand each other's peace and what they've got to do and what has to happen before they, oh, we could move that back three weeks.

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In fact, that would even help us.

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And then he incentivized them all, the more you move the timeline back, working together by understanding each other, we're going to all participate in the profits.

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He's going to share that with them.

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And boom.

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We don't have the bank in our back pocket for three months that we wouldn't have had.

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It's a big deal.

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Yeah, that's wonderful.

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Yeah, that's powerful.

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That's powerful.

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So then, obviously, there's victory stories like that when it's very exciting and motivating.

SPEAKER_00:
And then, of course, there's times when people are breaking trust, whether it's intentionally, unintentionally, and growth is required.

SPEAKER_01:
So many times it's unintentional.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, so many times.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, that friend wasn't trying to wreck that guy's life because he didn't know what a P&L really looked like.

SPEAKER_01:
We judge ourselves by our intentions.

SPEAKER_01:
We judge others by what they do.

SPEAKER_01:
And sometimes what we do, we didn't have bad intentions, but it breaks trust.

SPEAKER_00:
Back to your 11.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, back to my 11 things, Henry.

SPEAKER_00:
So I want to read them real quick, and then I want to dance with these a little bit.

SPEAKER_00:
So the title I gave this as I was taking notes was, how can you trust that people are going to grow?

SPEAKER_00:
But then also, for me, it's like, if I wanted to grow in a certain area, here are things to be looking for to increase the probability of me growing.

SPEAKER_00:
And again, you mentioned this in your book on trust.

SPEAKER_00:
You hit on it a little bit in Necessary Endings, which is another fantastic book, Henry's, that I recommend.

SPEAKER_00:
And then you kind of dance with it in How People Grow, which Henry wrote a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00:
with another writer.

SPEAKER_00:
So, how you can trust people are going to grow.

SPEAKER_01:
Number one— Now, I would say this, because you use the word grow a lot.

SPEAKER_01:
So, I come from a faith perspective in life, and Trust and Necessary Endings are pretty much straightforward business books.

SPEAKER_01:
If they do pick up how people grow, they're going to see a lot of spiritual content in there.

SPEAKER_01:
So, you know, if you get triggered

SPEAKER_00:
I find all this really valuable.

SPEAKER_00:
And my assumption is each one of these would have some kind of biblical principle associated with it.

SPEAKER_00:
But number one, admission of need, and I'm not sure if this necessarily goes in any

SPEAKER_00:
specific order, but admission of need.

SPEAKER_00:
Number two, verifiable involvement in a proven change process.

SPEAKER_00:
Number three, a structured approach.

SPEAKER_00:
Number four, seeking skilled help, not just anybody.

SPEAKER_00:
Number five, you're seeking out new experiences and developing new skills.

SPEAKER_00:
Number six, there's a self-sustaining motivation.

SPEAKER_00:
They actually want to grow.

SPEAKER_00:
Number seven, there's the presence of support.

SPEAKER_00:
Number eight, there's some evidence of change.

SPEAKER_00:
You're actually seeing some evidence of change.

SPEAKER_00:
Number nine, there's some kind of – Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
Number nine, there's some kind of monitoring system.

SPEAKER_00:
Number 10, total transparency, and then you said if needed, so sometimes it's important, sometimes it's not as important.

SPEAKER_00:
And number 11, the willingness to be questioned.

SPEAKER_00:
Now, I love that.

SPEAKER_00:
I think that's worth writing down as a check for myself.

SPEAKER_00:
Am I willing to be questioned?

SPEAKER_00:
Am I developing new skills?

SPEAKER_00:
Do I have a support structure?

SPEAKER_01:
Yes.

SPEAKER_01:
Just take down the willingness to be questioned.

SPEAKER_01:
How many times have you heard

SPEAKER_01:
when somebody's questioned, a phrase come out of their mouth, when somebody says, you know, I looked at the numbers, and you had said this, but what I saw here, and the person goes, so what, are you questioning my integrity?

SPEAKER_01:
Well,

SPEAKER_01:
I wasn't, but I am now, and I found out you're narcissistically defensive.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, it's like, we all ought to be able to be questioned.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, if somebody sees something or feels something and doesn't ask a question about it, you're going to find out a lot about that person by how open they are to entertaining what you're inquiring about versus, you know, being defensive and, how dare you?

SPEAKER_01:
You don't trust me?

SPEAKER_01:
You know, well.

SPEAKER_00:
Probably not now, I did, but... Well, I feel sometimes uncomfortable asking, because I don't want to elicit that response, and so I'll just avoid it, and I don't know if anyone else is that way, but there's like this, I don't want people to get mad at me that I'm drilling in deeper than they're comfortable with.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, I bet you've had experiences that told you, I better not say that to that person.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, because I don't want to get snapped at or barked at or whatever.

SPEAKER_00:
One of the ones that was on there that I want to double click on was the support element, and you're right.

SPEAKER_00:
How people grow is very entrenched in a biblical paradigm, but I do feel like one of the things you talk about in that book that

SPEAKER_00:
I wanted to ask you about is the idea of community.

SPEAKER_00:
And one of the reasons why that's important is, you know, a lot of coaches are work by themselves.

SPEAKER_00:
And it's great at Novus Global.

SPEAKER_00:
It's a it's a community of coaches, which makes some things easier and makes other things harder, because we're doing this in the community as a team.

SPEAKER_00:
And I would like to ask you a little bit about

SPEAKER_00:
the role that community plays in people growing, changing, evolving, becoming more trustworthy, or learning to trust more, or whatever.

SPEAKER_00:
Could you talk a little bit about the role of community in that process?

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, so really, it may be the most important question when you're talking about people changing.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, back when there were bookstores, I'd go in to sign books or shop or whatever, and I'd see this section, self-help.

SPEAKER_01:
I would always laugh.

SPEAKER_01:
There is no bigger oxymoron than self-help.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, think about this.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01:
Am I the self that needs help, or am I the helper?

SPEAKER_01:
Which one am I?

SPEAKER_01:
It's like telling a car it's out of gas, get some self gas.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, if you need help, by definition, it's not living in here anywhere.

SPEAKER_01:
I got to reach outside myself.

SPEAKER_01:
Look, life is constructed, every capacity you have,

SPEAKER_01:
From your immune system, to your brain size, to your thinking processes, your emotional regulation, to your goals, and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
All of that stuff, you're born with a bunch of wiring and potential and talents and gifts and genes and all that.

SPEAKER_01:
But then those have to plug into a relationship.

SPEAKER_01:
It starts with the caretaker on the first day of life.

SPEAKER_01:
and through connection with other humans, you're literally in a metaphysical way, a quantum physics way, you are internalizing functions from the outside.

SPEAKER_01:
Just like when your computer's on Wi-Fi and it installs updates, what does it do?

SPEAKER_01:
It removes bugs and it gives new code.

SPEAKER_01:
That's what relationship does to us.

SPEAKER_01:
Otherwise, a football team that's seven points down in the halftime would all go individually sit in a phone booth.

SPEAKER_01:
All right?

SPEAKER_01:
That's not what they do.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, it's like thermodynamics teaching that teaches us in a closed system, entropy increases over time.

SPEAKER_01:
So we, we wind down, we get worse.

SPEAKER_01:
We have cognitive biases.

SPEAKER_01:
We have all sorts of, you know, autoimmune intellectual problems.

SPEAKER_01:
Our brain is eating itself and our thoughts are dissecting bad thoughts with bad thoughts.

SPEAKER_01:
And so,

SPEAKER_01:
So reverse entropy, you open up the system.

SPEAKER_01:
Now you can reverse entropy in any system by opening up to two ingredients.

SPEAKER_01:
We have to have new energy from the outside.

SPEAKER_01:
That's why you get a pep talk.

SPEAKER_01:
That's why you get a little encouragement from everyone now and then.

SPEAKER_01:
That's why you get a push.

SPEAKER_01:
Come on, you can do it.

SPEAKER_01:
No, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_01:
The trainer, you know, you're going, I'm done.

SPEAKER_01:
Give me two more.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, you didn't have two more in you until they said, give me two more.

SPEAKER_01:
And then you find two more.

SPEAKER_01:
This external energy and support and push are crucial to any kind of growth.

SPEAKER_01:
Now you go deep into this, for example, you don't create new neurological patterns.

SPEAKER_01:
that have to be grown for any kind of growth to occur.

SPEAKER_01:
You can't learn a new behavior without new wiring.

SPEAKER_01:
You've got to have circuitry for that behavior to run on.

SPEAKER_01:
And new wiring is only created in a state of arousal.

SPEAKER_01:
Because it takes all the biochemistry to bind the experiences to the hippocampus and become memory and all this kind of complicated stuff nobody cares about.

SPEAKER_01:
But arousal comes from somebody supporting, pushing, you can do it, no, okay, well, come on, let's, you know, and it also comes from taking risks, getting out over your skis a little bit.

SPEAKER_01:
So if somebody's not pushing us and supporting us to move us, you know, one's a push and other's underneath lifting us up,

SPEAKER_01:
to have the courage that we don't have, or give a little more security to figure out, I'm going to live through this, then we can't get out over our skis.

SPEAKER_01:
If you're not getting out over your skis, you're just doing what you did yesterday, and that's not growth either.

SPEAKER_01:
So this relational support, we get it through modeling.

SPEAKER_01:
Human beings are designed to grow through imitation.

SPEAKER_01:
And if I haven't seen it, I probably can't do it.

SPEAKER_01:
I got to see it, I got to experience it, there's got to be deliberate practice, there's got to be focused attention, there's got to be observing, all of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
That happens in a relationship.

SPEAKER_01:
That's why, you know, you're in the coaching business, right?

SPEAKER_01:
The highest performers in the world, what do they all have in common?

SPEAKER_01:
They have a coach.

SPEAKER_01:
There's just no way.

SPEAKER_01:
I've got one client company that spends $100 million a year on individual coaching for their top leaders.

SPEAKER_01:
Why does Tiger Woods have a coach?

SPEAKER_01:
He knows how to hit a golf ball.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, it's just the way things work.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and what I would imagine, too, you'd agree that not all communities are created equal.

SPEAKER_00:
And so part of this is about how do we design

SPEAKER_00:
How do we design communities to drop the best?

SPEAKER_00:
How do we design communities to facilitate growth?

SPEAKER_00:
How do we design, whether it's a coaching relationship or a team?

SPEAKER_00:
We're like ecologists trying to build a certain kind of ecosystem for flourishing, for trust, or for growth, or whatever it is we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, I heard Ed Catmull one time talk about when, when, you know, he put Pixar and was it Disney together and, and the ones that came together and created all those great, you know, Toy Story and Nemo and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
And he said he realized when he came, there's not going to be innovation till we change this culture.

SPEAKER_01:
And his initial thing was a five-year culture change project to create exactly what you said, the ecosystem where this could emerge.

SPEAKER_01:
And he went in and he worked with the dynamics of these innovation teams.

SPEAKER_01:
It was all about

SPEAKER_01:
psychology.

SPEAKER_01:
I went up to him afterwards and said, you're a neuroscientist.

SPEAKER_01:
Everything you just talked about is neuroscience.

SPEAKER_01:
It's how the brain works, but it's in an ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01:
And the coach or the leader has got to produce, and it's about the soil.

SPEAKER_00:
It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00:
I think this will encourage people.

SPEAKER_00:
I got to interview Ed on this podcast as well.

SPEAKER_00:
He told the story about how when they went over to Disney, they weren't producing stories that were particularly good.

SPEAKER_00:
Then they shifted the culture.

SPEAKER_00:
The assumption was they were going to have to fire a bunch of people.

SPEAKER_00:
What they discovered was they didn't have to fire hardly anyone because it wasn't a people problem.

SPEAKER_00:
In the trust

SPEAKER_00:
elements of the five elements, it was not an ability issue.

SPEAKER_00:
It was something else.

SPEAKER_00:
And so when they got that ordered, then they started producing better stories without having a lot of turnover.

SPEAKER_00:
And where that gets exciting for me is I think about Novus Global is our firm, or as we work with different companies, and if you're listening to this, and you think about your company,

SPEAKER_00:
Oftentimes we think it's a ability thing, but it's actually a cultural thing or a process thing.

SPEAKER_00:
And if you can get the culture right, I think I've even read this from you, if you can get the culture right, it'll take care of a lot of the people stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, and it also takes care of the who's got to go problem.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, there are people that need to be fired and laid off.

SPEAKER_01:
They don't fit or they're not good enough, right, to do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01:
But if you get the culture right, then that becomes a self-selection

SPEAKER_01:
issue, not a you got to be the bad guy.

SPEAKER_01:
Because the culture itself, if you're developing, and I talk a lot to teams and companies about the immune system of the culture,

SPEAKER_01:
And there should be immunity.

SPEAKER_01:
When your body has an infection, the rest of the body goes out, it isolates it, it tries to fix it, it does a lot of stuff to it, and ultimately, if it can't, it expels it, right?

SPEAKER_01:
And so, when you're building, part of the ecosystem is, we don't let certain things live here.

SPEAKER_01:
Now that may be attitudinally, it may be interpersonally, it may be certain levels of performance, it might be showing up, you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01:
But the immune system should take care of so much of this.

SPEAKER_01:
And somebody who doesn't fit

SPEAKER_01:
doesn't want to be there because it's too uncomfortable when the immune system is saying, you know, step up.

SPEAKER_01:
And you're not stepping up.

SPEAKER_01:
And so in Necessary Endings, I've got a chapter called No More Mr. Bad Guy, colon, The Magic of Self-Selection.

SPEAKER_01:
And so when you have a performance culture, everybody knows this is what we need from that chair.

SPEAKER_01:
that you're in.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, I want that to be you.

SPEAKER_01:
But that's up to you, because this is what that chair has to produce and the way it's got to behave.

SPEAKER_01:
You get to decide if you want that chair or not.

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01:
The ecosystem is doing this for you.

SPEAKER_01:
It's not like the bad cop runner.

SPEAKER_01:
If the shoe doesn't fit, you know,

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, but this is the shoe we need.

SPEAKER_00:
This is the shoe we need.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00:
So then, again, if you're listening to this and you want to learn more about creating a culture of trust, we highly recommend checking out Henry's book, Trust.

SPEAKER_00:
I want to pivot now to some of the questions that some of my friends and clients and some of our coaches have asked.

SPEAKER_00:
And the first one is from a buddy of mine, a very successful business guy.

SPEAKER_00:
I've been friends with him for years.

SPEAKER_00:
He actually hired a lot of our coaches to work with him, multi-billion dollar company.

SPEAKER_00:
Economic headwinds were in his favor.

SPEAKER_00:
He won.

SPEAKER_00:
He's winning.

SPEAKER_00:
Now there's a price that comes with that.

SPEAKER_00:
Everything's bigger, more complicated, more demands.

SPEAKER_00:
And so the question that he wanted me to ask you is, how do you deal with the cost of success, and specifically, I guess, around burnout?

SPEAKER_00:
But what would you suggest to a leader who's leading at that level?

SPEAKER_00:
How do they maintain their emotional health while things are continually up and to the right?

SPEAKER_01:
I heard one of the best CEOs that

SPEAKER_01:
that I've ever known.

SPEAKER_01:
So he took a little bank from $800 million to $62 billion in assets.

SPEAKER_01:
And he said, every day when I went to work as a CEO, I knew what my job was.

SPEAKER_01:
And that was to figure out how whatever I did any day, I would never have to do again.

SPEAKER_01:
I said, that is neuroscience.

SPEAKER_01:
That's the design.

SPEAKER_01:
And the way you said it was, because as a CEO, I got to be focused on the future.

SPEAKER_01:
I got to be focused on what we, you know, out there.

SPEAKER_01:
It needs white space in the brain, right?

SPEAKER_01:
Well, the way your brain is designed, when you learn to drive a car, you have to pay attention to it, right?

SPEAKER_01:
For a week.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, I got a steering wheel.

SPEAKER_01:
Here's the, you know, but then what it does is it delegated delegates all that to lower parts of the brain after it becomes automatic.

SPEAKER_01:
Now you can drive and not think about it and talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_01:
Right.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, a lot of times people with great success, um, they are not seeing in a systemic way.

SPEAKER_01:
What do I need to be doing?

SPEAKER_01:
to not be doing what I've been doing that got me to here.

SPEAKER_01:
Because now, if I've done that many times, that means there's a pattern that's repeatable, that's codifiable, that I can offload.

SPEAKER_01:
And that's just one quick thing.

SPEAKER_01:
I was talking to a guy one time that built an HVAC company by acquisitions.

SPEAKER_01:
And so they would buy companies all over the country.

SPEAKER_01:
And he was just doing a lot, and everything was going great.

SPEAKER_01:
And he wanted to focus on some other things.

SPEAKER_01:
But he said, I can look at a local shop and evaluate it in 30 seconds and say whether or not we ought to buy it.

SPEAKER_01:
And I said, well, if you can do it in 30 seconds, that means that you've developed unconscious pattern recognition in your brain, and you're seeing something.

SPEAKER_01:
So I want you to spend six months

SPEAKER_01:
decoding what it is that you're seeing in one second.

SPEAKER_01:
And he did that, and then he could coach others.

SPEAKER_01:
And then, boom.

SPEAKER_01:
And now, I mean, it's off the charts.

SPEAKER_01:
So the first thing I would ask, if somebody says they're burned out, and they got too much because it's grown, then what are you doing that is really

SPEAKER_01:
can be given to somebody else if you spend the time to offload how you do it and develop them.

SPEAKER_01:
That'd be the first thing.

SPEAKER_01:
The second thing is, I want you to diagnose, are you burned out or are you tired?

SPEAKER_01:
Now, sometimes tired is a little bit of a quantity problem.

SPEAKER_01:
You're doing too much, you lifted too much weight, you ran too many laps, you worked too many days in a row, and rest is designed, rest will cure tired.

SPEAKER_01:
The greatest performers in the world, the research shows, engage 10,000% and then they 100% disengage and they do nothing for periods of time.

SPEAKER_01:
That can be daily, it can be weekly, monthly, whatever.

SPEAKER_01:
Because we need rest.

SPEAKER_01:
Lift weights every day, you tear down the cells, you take a day off, and the cells grow.

SPEAKER_01:
So, are you tired or are you burned out?

SPEAKER_01:
Well, if rest isn't, and time away doesn't fix it, and here's how you know it fixes it, when I rest, I get up the next day, and I want to go do it again, because I feel better.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, that means that there's either, now we're getting to two other factors, there's either a desire inside, okay,

SPEAKER_01:
that wants to go do it, or you don't have an approach avoidance conflict.

SPEAKER_01:
See, a lot of times burnout comes from, I want to do this, but if I do this, it's putting me in conflict with something else.

SPEAKER_01:
That's unsustainable.

SPEAKER_01:
So, when things get bigger, sometimes leaders have incompatible wishes, really, and the size has created incompatible desires and conflicts.

SPEAKER_01:
If I do this, then I can't see my kid.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, that's unsustainable.

SPEAKER_01:
if you really care, right, about either one of them.

SPEAKER_01:
So sometimes there's a dynamic conflict to be solved that's the cancer underneath burnout.

SPEAKER_01:
And go to either one of those.

SPEAKER_01:
Sometimes, you know, I could love something and get burned out because I got to deal with Joey every day.

SPEAKER_01:
It's a Joey problem, right?

SPEAKER_01:
Or sometimes I'm burned out because I go, yeah, well, you know what?

SPEAKER_01:
I

SPEAKER_01:
I liked my prom date, but there was a season.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, I got over it.

SPEAKER_01:
We are, you know, sometimes passions and interests themselves

SPEAKER_01:
They do have a season.

SPEAKER_01:
One of my favorite passages, everybody's heard the song by the Byrds, to everything, turn, turn, there is a season, a time to die, to all that.

SPEAKER_00:
I'm not a singer, but.

SPEAKER_01:
That was very good.

SPEAKER_01:
There was a season in my life where I loved clinical work.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, I just loved it.

SPEAKER_01:
And then I built a chain of hospital treatment centers in 40 markets in the Western states.

SPEAKER_01:
I loved running a company.

SPEAKER_01:
But I love also working with leaders and high performers in business.

SPEAKER_01:
That season of running something, I was done.

SPEAKER_01:
So I sold the company.

SPEAKER_01:
I set up a little boutique practice where it's just me and my clients.

SPEAKER_01:
And I get to watch high performers and help them and all of that.

SPEAKER_01:
I don't want to run anything anymore.

SPEAKER_01:
Everybody says, why don't you scale what you do?

SPEAKER_01:
I go, you know, I did that.

SPEAKER_01:
I just don't want to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01:
Sometimes you got to check and see if the engine that was propelling that, it might be time for a different season.

SPEAKER_01:
And then the third part of that is that in growth, you have not even realized it, but you have developed capacities

SPEAKER_01:
in that learning process that now are merging together, and your current context isn't tapping in to who you've become.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, I was a competitive golfer, and played college golf and all that, and, you know, I was playing high school competitions,

SPEAKER_01:
I kind of, you know, you sort of hit a plateau.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, I went to college, and all of a sudden there's, you know, two All-Americans on the team, and, you know, Payne Stewart was a teammate.

SPEAKER_01:
And I'm going, whoa, this is a different league, you know.

SPEAKER_01:
And you've developed the competencies.

SPEAKER_01:
You kind of lost your burnt, call it burnout.

SPEAKER_01:
You need a challenge.

SPEAKER_01:
Because you're better than where you were.

SPEAKER_01:
So there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01:
It can even be something personally that's strained in the fuel system.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, you got to get under the hood, but there's a lot of things that do it.

SPEAKER_00:
That's so helpful.

SPEAKER_00:
So then two quick last questions.

SPEAKER_00:
One is from one of our coaches, Jennifer Tharp, Dr. Dr. Jennifer Tharp.

SPEAKER_00:
And she was asking from your perspective because, you know, she was doing counseling for years before she became a coach.

SPEAKER_00:
And she she was asking this.

SPEAKER_00:
She's approaching you as a leadership psychologist.

SPEAKER_00:
And how do you and the patterns and trends of all the people that you work with and you're in boardrooms and you see very high performing people.

SPEAKER_01:
there's a dynamic tension that exists in the universe, period.

SPEAKER_01:
And that dynamic tension, all the way down to the subatomic level, you have subatomic particles that are individual particles that randomly fire.

SPEAKER_01:
But they fire together and they join and they create complexity in a system.

SPEAKER_01:
So when we're talking about

SPEAKER_01:
things that get in leaders' ways.

SPEAKER_01:
You always have to look at both sides.

SPEAKER_01:
What is the individual makeup?

SPEAKER_01:
And most of the time, there's some growth step that's waiting for that leader to take it.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, I just, you can't overestimate existential individual responsibility.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, responsibility, I don't mean duty bound, checking the boxes.

SPEAKER_01:
What I mean by responsibility, you know, if you go every

SPEAKER_01:
every world of human behavior, but especially existential psychology has always said that we have to own our own existence.

SPEAKER_01:
You got to put your arms around it and say, what part am I playing in this getting in my own way, right?

SPEAKER_01:
What part am I playing, and how do I need to develop

SPEAKER_01:
to be able to make it work.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:
Would you say almost like every leader in any given moment has a next step that you're saying that they're tempted to avoid?

SPEAKER_00:
And where they get in their own way is they avoid exploring what that next step is and really leaning into it?

SPEAKER_01:
They're either avoiding it, or it's a no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00:
They don't know what they don't know.

SPEAKER_00:
They don't even know it exists.

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
It's like when the old story about, I don't even know if this is true or not, but when NASA put their astronauts up there, and the big problem was they would try to write notes, but in an anti-gravity situation, the ink wouldn't flow.

SPEAKER_01:
And so they spent millions of dollars.

SPEAKER_01:
I don't think this is even true, but it's a great story.

SPEAKER_01:
Trying to, researching, trying to get an ink to work and no gravity.

SPEAKER_01:
And all this research and, you know, a year later somebody said, what do the Russians do?

SPEAKER_01:
And they went and found out, well, the Russians use a pencil.

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, I've heard that too.

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
Everybody's heard that, right?

SPEAKER_01:
So, but it's a great example because sometimes they don't even know.

SPEAKER_01:
There's a pencil?

SPEAKER_01:
I could use a pencil?

SPEAKER_01:
And they get with a good coach, or they get with a mentor, and they say, I got a tough direct report.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, why don't you say this?

SPEAKER_01:
Oh, that's different.

SPEAKER_01:
Problem goes away.

SPEAKER_01:
So it could be a small thing, or it could be a deeply characterological thing.

SPEAKER_01:
I don't mean that morally character.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean how they're glued together.

SPEAKER_01:
There's something about their emotional regulation.

SPEAKER_01:
that keeps him from seeing options that are in front of them all the time, or being able to execute on them.

SPEAKER_01:
That's why this individual growth piece is so important.

SPEAKER_01:
But, again, I said we live in a relational universe.

SPEAKER_01:
Everything is interconnected.

SPEAKER_01:
You can't say to a tree, you only have an individual problem and we're going to put a lattice of support.

SPEAKER_01:
Now the tree is going to grow.

SPEAKER_01:
Hailstorms are killing it every day.

SPEAKER_01:
We might need a greenhouse, right?

SPEAKER_01:
The system, the team you're on, the boss you have, the company, the economy, the markets are doing stuff to you that are tapping into, again, you're interconnected, tapping into abilities or inabilities that you have to respond to that well.

SPEAKER_01:
And so you always have to have both.

SPEAKER_01:
I can't tell you how many times I've gone into an executive team, done all the interviews, go back to the CEO and he goes, what's the problem?

SPEAKER_01:
I said, you're one firing away from success.

SPEAKER_01:
You got a poison.

SPEAKER_01:
You got a divisive person.

SPEAKER_01:
Or you got somebody that's, that's lowering the IQ of the team by 30 points by creating a perfectionistic or whatever.

SPEAKER_01:
Negative.

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
Who knows?

SPEAKER_01:
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:
Sometimes.

SPEAKER_01:
I might go back and say, you're one hire away from success.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, let's get into that.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, look at that.

SPEAKER_01:
And they need a seat at the table that that ability is not in that team.

SPEAKER_01:
You know, classic example we've seen over the last however many years, how many times have people shifted their whole strategies to digital?

SPEAKER_01:
Everything has to do with the apps and the social and all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
And the IT director reports to the CFO?

SPEAKER_01:
Really?

SPEAKER_01:
If this is your strategy, why don't you get somebody that you're lucky to have them in the C-suite?

SPEAKER_01:
Because that's what, and so a lot of, now let's get back to the individual.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, let's say they're, you know, really, really, really, really cost conscious.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, you know,

SPEAKER_01:
We can't afford another C-suite person.

SPEAKER_01:
Or it might be the board they're dealing with, and they don't know how to go get the board to trust them to buy into investing into a few more people or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01:
It's always both.

SPEAKER_01:
It's always both.

SPEAKER_01:
And there are people—I read an article in the Journal just the other day.

SPEAKER_01:
You're talking about sometimes it could be the market or the economy, right?

SPEAKER_01:
About some hedge funds somewhere, they're going crazy buying malls that have sinkholes in the parking lot and empty buildings, and their returns are incredible.

SPEAKER_01:
Worst market in the last however many years for malls.

SPEAKER_01:
Nobody goes to malls anymore unless they're high experience, you know, stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
They're killing it now.

SPEAKER_01:
And they have a strategy and the way they're doing it and subdividing it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01:
But somebody was sitting at that table in a bad system, a mall economy.

SPEAKER_01:
Somebody had different eyes and said,

SPEAKER_01:
There's gotta be a pony in here somewhere if there's this much crap all around.

SPEAKER_01:
And they looked at it differently.

SPEAKER_01:
So it's both.

SPEAKER_01:
What's the individual growth step?

SPEAKER_01:
Maybe you're afraid to fire somebody.

SPEAKER_01:
Maybe you're conflict avoidant.

SPEAKER_01:
Maybe you don't have the capacity to think big enough until it's built into you.

SPEAKER_01:
I always say to people, where did Google come from?

SPEAKER_01:
Well, let me tell you where I think it came from.

SPEAKER_01:
A graduate student named Larry Page went to a leadership development coaching program, and they taught him a mantra.

SPEAKER_01:
And he said it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in his head.

SPEAKER_01:
And here was the mantra, have a healthy disregard for the impossible.

SPEAKER_01:
Just said that over and over, trained his brain.

SPEAKER_01:
One morning, a couple weeks later, he wakes up with a thought.

SPEAKER_01:
What if we downloaded every URL on the entire internet and saved it?

SPEAKER_01:
Now, if I had that thought, I'd go, we don't have enough RAM.

SPEAKER_01:
That's impossible.

SPEAKER_01:
Where would you get the servers?

SPEAKER_01:
That's impossible.

SPEAKER_01:
Thought differently.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, now we have search engines and then you have, you know, all, you know, the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_01:
But some people, their background, their critical father's voice in their head.

SPEAKER_01:
Who's going to believe in you?

SPEAKER_01:
You need to get a real job.

SPEAKER_01:
Who knows what's doing it?

SPEAKER_01:
Many times, and you're a coach, many times it's deep personal growth.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00:
That's good, Henry.

SPEAKER_00:
That's good.

SPEAKER_00:
Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00:
OK, last question.

SPEAKER_00:
Thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_00:
This is from Chris North, another one of our coaches.

SPEAKER_00:
And this may be I'm excited for this.

SPEAKER_00:
So he essentially invited you to look into, you know, no one has a crystal ball, but looking into the future, what are what do you think of the necessary leadership skills?

SPEAKER_00:
For people like young, maybe younger leaders who are going to be the ones stepping into their season of leadership in the next several years?

SPEAKER_01:
Well, this might not be popular with some of those younger leaders, ergo the problem.

SPEAKER_01:
And then I'm going to empathize with them and agree with them.

SPEAKER_01:
But we do have, I think, generationally, we do have a shift.

SPEAKER_01:
in some of the, and I'm gonna call it, some of the factors that are needed for high performance in anything.

SPEAKER_01:
When you flew to New York, you had a pilot that depended on her or his accountability relationships.

SPEAKER_01:
They filed a flight plan, this speed, this altitude, this heading.

SPEAKER_01:
If they weren't hitting it, those accountability relationships, which she'd never get in the airplane without those, beep, beep, beep, you're two degrees up, you're 38,000 feet instead of 40, you're going to lose, you're burning too much fuel.

SPEAKER_01:
We need structure and accountability.

SPEAKER_01:
speaking into us that we have to adapt to in order to get better.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, when I grew up, my parents were way older when I was born, so I had really old parents.

SPEAKER_01:
I had a World War II first sergeant as a father.

SPEAKER_01:
He built a business, successful business for 40 years.

SPEAKER_01:
And I remember he used to say, job description, I'll tell you what most job description is, do whatever the hell I tell you to do, that's your job description.

SPEAKER_01:
Now, he had no problem with that as a Sergeant in the Army in Europe in World War II, and nobody else did either.

SPEAKER_01:
OK, well, try that today.

SPEAKER_01:
And he wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, he was a great people builder and all that.

SPEAKER_01:
But my point is that in a lot of companies I work with, it's really, and this is to future leaders, it's an art to do the alchemy of how you have performance standards.

SPEAKER_01:
And I don't just mean outcomes, I mean the activities

SPEAKER_01:
and learning and development that lead to the outcomes.

SPEAKER_01:
That's another big problem.

SPEAKER_01:
People measure results, but they don't measure the execution of the activities that are going to drive the results.

SPEAKER_01:
So when you get into issues like that, a lot of people, and we know this, you can read it in the papers every day, there's a, you know, you're triggering me.

SPEAKER_01:
if you tell me what to do, or I want more autonomy.

SPEAKER_01:
And those are great things.

SPEAKER_01:
I'm not poo-pooing anything.

SPEAKER_01:
But the future leaders have got to be able to, and this is where I think emotional intelligence and agility is, that's what they're going to need.

SPEAKER_01:
Because the agility to be able to integrate

SPEAKER_01:
people of very opposing worldviews than yours.

SPEAKER_01:
It could be political, religious, economic, geographical, whatever.

SPEAKER_01:
They have got to have the capacity to metabolize getting to a vision and the agility to the leadership agility

SPEAKER_01:
to being able to join hands with people that are very different than them, and sometimes don't even want to hear from somebody, I got to do it your way, or whatever.

SPEAKER_01:
And to be able to, it all comes to trust, be able to have that chemical ability to bring somebody along and let them take you along at the same time.

SPEAKER_01:
And that includes various kinds of narratives, that includes various kinds of joining, it includes various kinds of driving performance while pulling performance out of people and also letting them define you, which is a different model.

SPEAKER_01:
It's going to be fun.

SPEAKER_00:
I'm looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00:
So what I hear you saying, Henry, is there's a paradox there.

SPEAKER_00:
There's a little bit of a—I'm going to use some old language—submission to the process to put yourself under authority of other people, and to grow, and not an arbitrary pay your dues.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, you said under authority.

SPEAKER_01:
So it's a great example.

SPEAKER_01:
A lot of times when we hear the word authority, we think of power.

SPEAKER_01:
Well, actually the etymology of the word authority is expert.

SPEAKER_01:
So we talk to an authority on this topic, right?

SPEAKER_01:
So if people gravitate towards expertise, the power of a leader

SPEAKER_01:
If their experience is under their power, you have to do this.

SPEAKER_01:
That ain't going to fly anymore.

SPEAKER_01:
I mean, my dad could get me to do my homework that way or mow the grass.

SPEAKER_01:
But today, no.

SPEAKER_01:
And there's also a neurological problem with that.

SPEAKER_01:
There's a shutdown in the brain.

SPEAKER_01:
But if I'm a golfer.

SPEAKER_01:
When I go on the range, I experience being under Tiger's authority, his expertise.

SPEAKER_01:
I am looking up at that expertise.

SPEAKER_01:
I'm looking up in that dynamic.

SPEAKER_01:
I want to move towards that expertise and be better and take from it.

SPEAKER_01:
That's the alchemy that I was talking about.

SPEAKER_01:
So how do, relationally, you drive that dynamic where they want to be what you want them to be?

SPEAKER_00:
That's good marriage.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, I think so, too.

SPEAKER_00:
In that sense, I suppose for young people, because we look up to people, but I think we do it—we don't maximize the looking up, to just admire someone from afar or whatever, but how can you, if you're a young leader, how can you get close to people who have the expertise and the authority that you want to have yourself, and then do whatever you can

SPEAKER_00:
to learn, grow, adapt, trust them, do what they're telling you to do because it's gonna help you develop that expertise that they have.

SPEAKER_00:
You said close.

SPEAKER_01:
One of my favorite words is proximity.

SPEAKER_01:
How do you overcome differences in people?

SPEAKER_01:
Well, generally, they think you're like this and they hate those kind of people until you put them in a phone booth together and they start to get close.

SPEAKER_01:
and their views change.

SPEAKER_01:
So this next generation and all that, proximity is going to be a driver.

SPEAKER_01:
You have got to develop proximity.

SPEAKER_01:
And sometimes even in a digital world, that's tricky, but it can be done.

SPEAKER_01:
So that's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_01:
And the other thing you said, wanting to move up to it, a goal can judge us or it can inspire us.

SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, well, that's a great place to end.

SPEAKER_00:
And just as a reference, Henry, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:
Thank you for spending time, more time than you'd promised to give us.

SPEAKER_00:
I appreciate your graciousness there.

SPEAKER_00:
And I've looked up to you for years, and I'm grateful for your expertise, your authority, the depth you bring.

SPEAKER_00:
I appreciate the connection to spiritual wisdom that you bring.

SPEAKER_00:
And if you're listening to this, I trust Henry.

SPEAKER_00:
I recommend you get his books, his stuff, check out his company, see about bringing him in to work with you as well.

SPEAKER_01:
Go to LEADU.TV.

SPEAKER_01:
L-E-A-D-U.TV.

SPEAKER_01:
L-E-A-D-U.TV.

SPEAKER_01:
There's some leadership stuff.

SPEAKER_01:
And in the personal growth arena, go to boundaries.me.

SPEAKER_01:
And you can find enough there to put you to sleep at night.

SPEAKER_00:
There's a ton of resources there.

SPEAKER_00:
A lot of our coaches access it all the time.

SPEAKER_00:
And you're on Instagram and all the things.

SPEAKER_00:
And I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00:
Thanks for continuing to serve.

SPEAKER_00:
Thanks, Henry.

SPEAKER_01:
Great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00:
You too.

SPEAKER_00:
All right, we have a few more things to let you know about before we go.

SPEAKER_00:
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